Episode 33: How does a University respond to COVID?

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Dr.  Wendy Slusser  00:02

On March 10, 2020, UCLA students, staff and faculty received an email stating in-person classes would be suspended the next day in response to the concerning COVID-19 outbreak across the nation. What University administration thought would be a short-term closure, ended up being much longer than anyone would have predicted. To address the ever-changing challenges over the course of the pandemic, UCLA leadership created the COVID-19 Response and Recovery Task Force. Consisting of 12 workgroups, the Task Force focused on a wide range of subjects from the logistics of maintaining research, to supporting the well-being of our Bruin community, to COVID testing. The staff, faculty, and student workgroup members from across the campus and UCLA Health work tirelessly to ensure UCLA continued to meet its mission to educate, research, and provide service to others. Join me today for a special conversation with Co-chairs of the Task Force, Administrative Vice Chancellor Michael Beck and immediate past chair of the Academic Senate, Dr. Michael Meranze. Please keep listening to learn about what happens behind the scenes at a university with over 80,000 community members when faced with a pandemic. Okay, well, Michael and Michael, we call Michael’s sometimes. It’s a pleasure to have you both on our podcast,  and we’re so grateful that you’ve had the time to chat with us about your leadership at the UCLA’s COVID-19 Response and Recovery Task Force. And I’d like to start for listeners to have you explain, firstly, what was the impetus of the COVID-19 Response and Recovery Task Force, and what were both of your roles?

 

Michael Beck  01:53

I can go ahead and start. The real impetus was to make sure that we had a coordinated effort across the campus to respond to the risks associated with the COVID-19 virus and the corresponding impacts to the campus and provide a way in which we can effectively debate the issues and provide recommendations to mitigate the spread of the virus to the campus community. Ultimately, consider what ways in which the campus needs to be prepared and respond to the changing dynamics of the virus and then incorporate principles of equity, inclusion into the decisions and recommendations that are ultimately made; and ultimately prepare and recognize that it’s a sustained challenge. This crisis was not a week, a day, or a month, but we’re going into the 19th month of the pandemic, and so we need to be preparing for responding to both the short-term realities but also responding to the long-term impacts.

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  03:04

I would underline, just in support of what Michael was saying, the importance of the sustained nature of the challenge. And when that campus first reduced its physical presence, there was some hope that COVID would simply be a problem for a few months, and that it might be brought under control relatively quickly. But it became apparent in the summer of 2020 that it was a longer haul challenge and that the campus needed to be prepared to respond in a way that allowed people to sustain that challenge without burning themselves out; without, you know, losing contact with what was important; and that the Task Force needed to think, not simply in terms of an emergency response, but in terms of an ongoing response. And the Task Force was set up to help provide recommendations and discussion, keeping in mind that it was a sustained and long-term problem.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  04:00

So Michael Meranze, you just mentioned a timeline, in terms of when we started shifting from what was apparently, originally an emergency response to more sustained emergency response. This Task Force was started when?

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  04:14

It took shape in September of 2020. Discussions began in August; there had been a prior Task Force known as the Future Planning Task Force that had focused primarily on preparing the campus for how to handle the fall term of 2020. And originally there were certain expectations. It became clear, as Michael probably remembers, in August when the county numbers and the national numbers of cases began to dramatically increase, that we would be unable to offer as robust an in-person teaching program as we had originally hoped and that there were challenges for research and other areas; and that in light of that rising challenge, we needed to establish mechanisms to guide and recommend action for the campus at least over the next year. And so the task force was established, and alongside the Task Force was established a series of working groups that were more in line with subject expert who would meet and focus on particular problems to make recommendations to the Task Force itself. And then the Task Force could make recommendations to campus leadership, so that there was a wide range of input.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  05:33

Yeah, so that seemed like where you were really realizing this sustained effort that needed to be elaborated on, like you said, with content experts. And I remember, early on, Vice Chancellor, Michael Beck, you were also, like in January of 2020, you were meeting with some regular content experts more related to, I believe, is more infectious disease, public health – is that correct?

 

Michael Beck  06:00

Thank you, Wendy. We were actually monitoring the Coronavirus, and as it was developing in China, we were monitoring that. We actually had, in February, the Chancellor’s cabinet actually go through a pandemic tabletop exercise, which was actually centered around COVID, as part of our regular emergency planning but in preparation for, what might have been – what we were contemplating at the time – that might be a pandemic; which, of course, certainly became a pandemic. And so we were working with infectious disease specialists at UCLA Health, in particular, to help us understand how the virus was spreading and what the likelihood of what would happen if it came to the United States and then ultimately to the campus, and what would be some of the implications associated with the environment that we currently know as UCLA. So we were looking at these, and at the very early stages, and as Michael Meranze mentioned, we did anticipate that this was going to be sort of a short-lived emergency; that we would have high case rate, and then it would burn out quickly. That, of course, didn’t materialize, and so we’ve continued to evolve our thinking based on additional information that’s being developed and made available through the medical and scientific community, as well as our own experience, and the way in which cases grow and plateau in the campus environment.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  07:35

So thinking back then – which is hard with a COVID brain sometimes – but thinking back to the January/February of 2020, Dr. Michael Meranze, you were the head of the Faculty Senate; Michael back is the Vice Chancellor of Administration; and you’re relying on these infectious disease specialists, public health specialists, but you’re also thinking we have over 85,000 people, so you’re also in charge of a mini city, in a lot of ways. And many of those students are living on campus, and of course, most of the workers are either working on campus or on another UCLA property. So when you were thinking of all of that, during the process of this infectious disease discussions, were you also thinking about what might have to happen with those populations if we were to have a pandemic in that life scenario in February?

 

Michael Beck  08:29

We did. One of the things that we’re looking at is the idea of obviously ramping down and turning remote, which we did in March, but also the reality that a significant portion of our operation can’t be done remotely. And so really trying to make sure that we have to continue to operate, as you said, Wendy, is that we’re a small city. And so cities just don’t roll up the streets because there’s a pandemic and close – and that’s the exact same situation with the University. We have animal research, we have patients in our hospitals and medical centers, we have students that their only home is UCLA; and we have, you know, 419 acres of property and some 30 million square feet of buildings that all have to be maintained and their systems have to continue to operate. And so that is where we spend a lot of our time because it’s – even as difficult as it is, it’s relatively easy to send people home; it’s harder to have people continue to work in an environment where there’s known risks, and you’re trying to mitigate those risks while continuing to operate.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  09:38

Yeah, I was really impressed, Michael Beck. I remember you talking about how you had PPE masks stored in case of something like this happening is that –

 

Michael Beck  09:48

Right. So part of our emergency planning for the hospital and for the campus is that we store significant amount of supplies for certain emergencies, and because of the fires that we’ve experienced in the last few years and the corresponding smoke, we’ve actually stockpiled – I don’t remember the exact quantities – but tens of thousands of masks, either N95 masks, which are referred to as respirators, or surgical masks. And then the hospital, because of the nature of their operation stockpiles, is substantially even more. So we did have a very significant inventory, which was very helpful for the campus. So we didn’t have a mask problem when this first came out for our healthcare workers, as other campuses did. UCLA Health actually lent N95’s and surgical masks to other campus medical centers that didn’t have that level of inventory and stock that they could actually utilize when the virus started hitting the campus; and we’re trying to quickly increase all of the hand sanitizer machines all over campus, which of course, we didn’t have; and we’re doing this in the same time that everybody else in the world is trying to do the same thing. Again, it was the fact that we had some supplies in reserve, and the hospital and their organization had substantial supplies of both the equipment, the devices to disperse the materials, the dispensers, as well as the supplies – backup supplies – to be able to refill the equipment, because that was one of the biggest challenges we had. But because of the fact that both the campus and the health system had a system in place to stockpile these type of materials, we were in a much better position than some of the other campuses or worksites.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  11:47

So what you’re really bringing up, in which I really give my hat’s off to you, is how prepared we were for that, at least, at that stage. And that’s really what, in most emergencies, that’s what’s so important, is to be prepared. And I’m wondering, Dr. Michael Meranze, you were the head of the Faculty Senate – how do you think some of these faculty were prepared, and also how did you manage the pivot, because you were the leader of that group? I’d love to hear.

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  12:13

Well the Academic Senate is the collective body of faculty at UCLA, and the Academic Senate is its institutional voice – various committees, positions – it has oversight over courses and curriculum, makes recommendations on a whole range of other issues that, I think, the chronology for me was slightly different. Michael is talking about January and February of 2020, and although I was brought into some of those discussions late in February, as the Senate Chair, my role really kicked in in March when the campus had to decide, first, whether it wanted to pivot to remote activity, which was ultimately the Chancellor’s decision, because the Chancellor declares the state of the campus and then how were we going to manage the transition, especially to remote education. And in order to make that possible, the Academic Senate had to move very quickly in order to authorize remote teaching for the time period in order to provide temporary suspensions of various regulations having to do with finals and the shape of finals; and also in order to work with the administration in order to help to get resources to faculty, so that the actual remote teaching could take place; and finally, to determine which courses simply couldn’t be suspended from in-person, but we we did our best to move as many classes as possible to remote. I mean, I think the faculty last spring and across this year did a really fabulous job of responding to the crisis in terms of their willingness to provide courses in a remote setting. I don’t think anyone was fully satisfied with how it turned out. I mean, there were various issues with remote about access, about equity. There are all sorts of issues that come up in the remote environment, but the Senate very quickly moved to authorize the necessary changes to regulations. And the faculty, I think, responded very dramatically and put other things aside in order to enable their students’ education to continue.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  14:34

So what it sounds like to me is you had some very strong systems in place, in terms of governance in the faculty that were able to be operationalized very quickly during this event in March where we all had to shelter at home, and it worked.

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  14:50

And the committees and the Legislative Assembly were very responsive and responsible.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  14:54

Yeah. And you lead that, which is really tremendous. So it sounds like in the spring, and what I’m hearing, and what I experienced, and what you’re describing, and what I remember, too; it was really a well-thought-out, well-systematized – some hiccups, of course – response. And then as we saw that this pandemic was going to be going on for longer, which none of us expected, you’d set up this working group and you led the COVID Response and Recovery Task Force. And I was very grateful that the Wellness and Work Expectation Workgroup is identified as a priority. And I’d like to know, between the two of you, how did you decide which subject matters you thought were important? And that would have been in September of 2020.

 

Michael Beck  15:42

Right. And ultimately, it evolved, because we started with the different elements of the campus that needed to have a have a focus. And so the different committees included, you know, an Education Committee, which was focusing specifically on how do we deal with courses, and which courses are going to be in-person, which courses are going to be remote – how do you deal with the different elements associated with the delivery of courses in this environment? Then there was another working group associated with really reviewing all the different plans that are being developed, and documentation associated with the protocols, and making sure that those were consistent with all the Cal/OSHA requirements, and university policy, and other governing documents. And then, of course, infection control and our operations team – we have to remember that we have a pre-K through 12 program and two schools on campus – and so we created one specific to that group. Because we – normally when we get in an environment, we’re obviously thinking mostly of the university environment, and so that is very different than having minors at, you know, less than one years old up to 12th grade; their needs are very different than the needs, in some cases, of what the campus community, the University community need. And then public health and compliance – we need to make sure that we were looking at the protocols to be able to ensure that the safety measures and mitigations that were being put in place, there was appropriate compliance associated with that, and appropriate instruction and communication to the community, so that they understood what needed to occur and providing reliability and ensuring that those mitigations are being put in place. And then recognizing the fact that this might create an environment for us to change the way that we see the workplace in the future as it relates to telecommuting. The EVCP, Executive Vice Chancellor and Provost, Carter, created the working group of Reinventing the UCLA Workforce of the Future, and that was set up specifically to look at sort of the longer-term opportunities associated with what we learned during the pandemic. And then research has its own unique environment, particularly laboratory research that in many ways needed to continue, and in some ways ramped up because we were doing COVID research that needed to be done as safely as possible. And then recognizing the fact that we’re still operating a campus with 47,000 students, some still living in Westwood, some on-campus and off-campus housing, and a large number of the students living remotely and still expecting to have some type of student life experience, even if it’s done in a remote environment. There was a Student Life and Housing Working Group established, and then with the vast amount of symptom monitoring and testing, and ultimately vaccinations that we needed to do, we created a working group to deal with that; then there was also the Teaching and Learning Working Group, which continued from March, when we put together that particular group to deal with the sort of the technological and the actual support mechanisms for faculty within the classroom for remote teaching, on how they could have additional tools and resources to be able to pivot from in person to remote; and then, last but not least, Dr. Slusser, was your working group, which was the Wellness and Work Expectations, and Michael Meranze will refer to this a little bit because there was two things: one, we were concerned about the mental well-being of the employees themselves and the students in our environment coping with the pandemic; but also the reality that the employees themselves were being pushed in different ways in which they had been pushed before. Many of them are working remotely – less separation between their work life and their home life, and in fact, with their computers in their bedrooms and kitchens and family rooms, it had the opportunity to interfere with their personal life in a way that hadn’t happened in the past. And there was concerns that employees would overwork themselves because they were so motivated to keep the University running and keep moving forward; and faculty trying to teach in modality that they’re not familiar with, and trying to manage their course in a remote environment, when probably their entire career was based in-person; and so those issues and concerns were put into that working group to make sure that we were putting together practices and workshops and things that would support the mental well-being and help managers understand the expectations that a pandemic brought to the equation created additional stressors in individuals’ lives, and how we could create spaces like encouraging people to, you know, take walks around the block, at the end of their normal day when they would normally get out and get in their car or a van pool and drive home and create that disconnect. You’re not – you don’t have that same disconnect when you’re at home. And so the idea is, again, that you’ve got to create a way of separation. And so this idea of including some type of physical activity associated with the transition can be supportive. So, anyway, I went on way too long, and I’ll let Professor Meranze add where I’ve left out or abbreviate it in a better way.

Dr. Michael Meranze  21:34

 

And what I would say – we try to identify areas of focus and problems. And I think, in part, what we were trying to avoid was things being done simply by inertia. You know, universities are spaces for inquiry, and we wanted as best as we could to create these working groups that could take up problems that were being posed and actually think them through, rather than simply going on as things have been done or simply adding onto things that had been done. And so, you know, we tried to include administration, staff, students, and faculty in these working groups. And we tried to have them recognize that the pandemic posed a lot of additional challenges that could not simply be added on to the normal way of doing things; under these conditions, needed to be perhaps modified or rethought in some way. So we can see these working groups as places to think through the problems that different areas of the campus would face under the strain of a pandemic. And Michael and I basically, along with the Executive Vice Chancellor and Provost, discussed and then came up with a series of areas that initially we thought were the most likely to be pressing, and then as he says, there are some that emerged across the year.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  23:01

It’s really great to hear the thoughts behind the decisions, because we are a university and that pursuing inquiry and really thinking deeply is part of our mission. And so this focus on different topic areas and finding a diverse group of people to contribute was tremendous. And I have to say, I asked across the UC’s about the particular working group that I ran, the Wellness and Work Expectation Group, to see if other UC’s had done that and they hadn’t. So it’s another, I think, really strong – it shows how strong your leaderships has been in terms of thinking holistically about this effort. Most of these working groups have wound down, and I’d love to hear from your point of view – what are your lessons learned from this period of time working on this challenge?

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  23:53

You know, I think that, you know, the successes of the Task Force in the process came about because of treating them as a shared endeavor between different parts of the University and trying to bring together a range of perspectives. You know, I do think that within the UC system, this was a fairly unique exercise. I don’t think there’s an equivalent structure that was set up on any of the other campuses. And I thought that there were always stresses and strains, and there are people that weren’t happy with various decisions, and I’m sure Michael and I can think of things that we would do differently; but, you know, I think the lesson that’s learned by this is that if you are faced with a challenge like this, you need to confront it in as open and thoughtful and inquiry-driven ways.

 

Michael Beck  24:50

Yeah, I would say that the lesson learned or reinforced through this is that you can’t be overprepared, and that we also need to rely on the individuals that have expertise in specific areas. The nature, certainly from my position, is that we’re dealing with crises that need immediate decisions. And I’ve unfortunately, or fortunately, dealt with a number of crises in my career, and so I feel very comfortable making immediate decisions. And this was a really good example of, as Professor Meranze described, as this was really a shared governance approach, right? I mean, this was not the Administrative Vice Chancellor making decisions on behalf of the campus without input from a significant number of people, and it wasn’t me making decisions or recommendations. There were literally 100+ people engaged in this process, across the campus. And, you know, I appreciate that the attention is on, you know, Professor Meranze and myself, today; but we didn’t do the bulk of the work. The bulk of the work was done by, you know, the people, Dr. Slusser, and others that were on these committees, and there were some really amazing superstars that really stepped up to the plate, which we could not have gotten through the pandemic without them. And so, I think, you know, we need to recognize the fact that the campus came together to work through and have the campus get through the pandemic in a way in which I think the campus should be proud – doesn’t mean it was perfect. But I think we did very well as a campus because we came and addressed this from a campus perspective.

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  26:37

To follow up on that, I mean, I completely agree with that. And, you know, Michael and I have talked about this; not just in this context but in others. You know, we have a university that is filled with enormous numbers of very knowledgeable and thoughtful people; and the more that the campus is able to draw on them and listen to them and mobilize them for common problem solving, the better I think the campus will be. And I think UCLA, given that it’s in L.A., faced some problems that some of the other campuses didn’t face but had a very wide range of people, faculty, staff, and students who brought deep knowledge – sometimes of their local circumstances, sometimes from below, sometimes a perspective from dealing with, you know, large issues around Cal/ OSHA that made all this possible. And going forward, I think the campus will be best as it draws on that reservoir and builds on these sorts of endeavors.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  27:37

Yeah, I think, you know, Dr. Meranze and Vice Chancellor Beck, you’re both really putting a finger on something that I’ve observed, as well – is actually, this pandemic, I think, brought our community even more together and more cohesive, and some people in the past have told me it’s like a treasure hunt at UCLA. You keep discovering these incredibly talented, thoughtful, deep thinkers – whether they’re the students, staff, or faculty – and I feel that this pandemic has just created that kind of setting where we’ve even been able to mobilize them, like Dr. Meranze is describing, which is tremendous. And a culture of shared governance and a culture of openness has to be coming from the top, and that is no question. So to wrap up, I’d like to ask you a couple of questions. One is, now that vaccination rates are rising, and we’re really now in more of a recovery mode, I’d like to know what your thoughts are in terms of what you’re looking forward to? And what experiences have you garnered now – which I hear, you know, I heard one, which is hoping that we continue this collaborative, shared governance kind of approach to solving problems – but what other things would you like to move forward on? And also, what are you concerned about as we recover or reopen?

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  28:58

I think we’re both concerned about the Delta variant.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  29:01

Yeah.

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  29:01

You know, I mean, I think – not to end this in a downer-sort-of way – I think had we done this podcast two weeks ago, Michael and I would probably have a somewhat different perspective than we do now. And, you know, we are concerned about the spread and the cases in L.A. County, the slowing down of vaccinations in the country – how that actually will play out on campus remains to be seen. You know, we’ve turned a lot of corners, but I’m not sure we’re at the end line yet. As a matter of fact, I’m sure we’re not at the end line.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  29:37

Michael Beck, do you have any?

 

Michael Beck  29:39

Yeah, I mean, Michael described it well. You know, we still have a fair number of challenges ahead of us. And, you know, I’m confident we’ll get through it, but I also recognize the fact that, you know, the entire organization is tired. And so you say, “what do you look forward to the most?” was actually the end of the pandemic, and I think everybody is still looking forward to that. And I’m hopeful that it’ll come sooner than later, and we can focus. You know, so much of the energy that’s put into responding to and preparing for the different phases of the pandemic is taking away so many resources from the focus of the campus and the other important issues that the campus is facing and needs to prepare for, for the future, to ensure that we continue to be the number one public university in the country. And so I look forward to the opportunity for us to be able to dedicate more time to those other issues. And as Professor Meranze articulated, I think we have learned that, as an organization, we have more in common than we have differences between the faculty and the administration and the students. And so I think we have really great opportunities to solve some very difficult challenges that are not unique to UCLA – they’re societal challenges, in particular. And I look forward to when we can really put the energy behind being able to help resolve those and build our campus community in a very thoughtful way.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  31:18

That’s a hopeful ending to a vision, which I agree with. I can see us heading in that direction, and I think that we have some building blocks from this experience, as well as our overall culture, which is one to strive and thrive and dedicate to knowledge building and learning and working hard and contributing to our world, right, to be a better world. So I’m thinking I’d like to end this with a thought: what keeps you both up at night?

 

Michael Beck  31:50

I mean, certainly, what’s keeping me up is: what’s next, and what are we forgetting? There’s so much to do, throughout this entire process, that there’s always the fear that somehow we’re missing something – and we’re going to miss and make something worse because we forgot to do something, or prepare something, or something won’t be ready when we need it to be. And that’s just a continual challenge because there’s no instruction book for this pandemic, even though we have a pandemic emergency plan, and we pulled that out and looked at it. It’s very different to have a plan on paper and actually prolonged, you know, year and a half – will probably be two years by the time this is really behind us – and those are very different than a tabletop exercise that takes a half a day. So those are the things that keep me up and really just constantly worrying about the safety of our community.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  32:51

Is there anything that you think of that’s good, that you can take with you, that we’ve learned so far?

 

Michael Beck  32:57

I think there’s a lot that we’ve learned and a lot of really positives. And like I said, I mean, there’s really been some amazing employees, some faculties, staff, and even students who have really risen to the occasion and been heroic behind the scenes where the campus community will never know, right? But they have really enabled us to move forward and undertake the right efforts on the campus and bring people together and avoid having a stumble. And that’s, you know, that’s just been remarkable. And you mentioned earlier, the reality that there might be some changes in the way in which we work and be able to create an environment for a new set of employees and reducing the amount of time people commute for some of our workforce. And even that’ll help reduce the commute for some of our workforce that has to come to campus. So I think there’s still some really wonderful things that come out of this. I’d still like to hear what keeps Michael up at night.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  34:02

So that’s – we’ll end there, then. Michael, Dr. Michael Meranze, what keeps you up at night, and what good can we take from this?

 

Dr. Michael Meranze  34:09

Well, I think, you know, what keeps me up at night – besides my dog – is, as Michael says, I mean, we’re mostly out of this, but we’re not completely out of it. And we’ve already asked a tremendous amount from everybody in the campus community. And so, we now are asking people to return and to figure out how to re-engage with the campus, at a point when the overall public health situation is fluid. So I think that there continues to be a good deal of uncertainty, and I worry about the demands that will be placed on students, faculty, and staff as they return, having had an exhausting, extraordinarily bizarre year, and to a situation where people are going to have to, in certain ways, relearn what at residential experience is like. And I just agree with Michael that there’s still a lot of challenges, and it’s hard to know for sure everything that you need to be prepared for. I think that we’ve learned a lot through the pandemic. It’s highlighted both strengths and weaknesses, both at UCLA and certainly highlighted many weaknesses in society at large; and I think that those are the things that we should take with us moving forward to try to fit.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  35:32

Well, on my part, I’m so grateful that, Dr. Meranze and Vice Chancellor Beck, you were leading us in this charge. And having you thinking through things, some of which we don’t even know what to expect in the future, but knowing that you’re thinking about it constantly – not that it’s a great thing, you need to also unplug yourselves – makes me really proud to be working at UCLA, to have two people like you, collectively, leading us through this really challenging time. So, thank you both so much for your time. I know it’s valuable.

 

Michael Beck  36:05

One thing, very quickly, because we sort of didn’t get into it – and Wendy that’s part of the organization that you’re part of, which is UCLA Health – and what an amazing and remarkable job that they did – you and your colleague did – during this period and continue to do. And when we talk about the campus, we can’t forget about the role that, particularly, the clinical operations have provided during this period. And it has been amazing to watch them continue in the eye of the storm for such a prolonged period of time. And I’m just immensely proud of that group and just grateful that they’re here. And I know that the campus – the health and safety of our campus community is better because of you and all your colleagues that have been focusing on the health of our community, in that way. So I do think it was important to sort of make that particular shoutout. So, thank you.

 

Dr.  Wendy Slusser  37:02

Thank you for making that point. And when you were talking about the connectivity of our whole campus, I was in my head thinking exactly that – how much we are working together – the health system and the campus community. So, thanks for bringing that up. Well, thank you both and really appreciate it, and I hope you get a little bit of rest and relaxation, if there is such a thing this summer. Thank you, again, for joining us. For more information about today’s episode, visit our website at healthy.ucla.edu/livewellpodcasts. Today’s podcast was brought to you by the Semel Healthy Campus Initiative Center at UCLA. To stay up to date with our episodes, subscribe to UCLA LiveWell on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Leave us a rating to tell us how we’re doing, and if you think you know the perfect person for us to interview next, please tweet your idea to us @HealthyUCLA. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and we hope you join us for our next episode as we explore new perspectives on health and well-being.

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